(Guest Author: Peter Moore)
Although Christopher gets a bit flippant now and then, I think that one reason that we find ourselves in accord is that we both look at how British Society has evolved and ask ‘how has this happened?’.
Kenneth Clarke got himself in the news again recently and this set me thinking about an incident from last year.
I have a good pal in the USA called Nigel. He is British but has worked in America for ever as a high flying show biz lawyer. Nigel had a son called Henry who was almost at adulthood and was by all accounts a fine young man, a scholar and athlete and noted base ball player.
Henry was in a car with his girl and two other well known base ball players and they were going dancing for the evening. A very drunk man drove in to the side of their car at a junction. Henry died instantly as did the girl and one man. The last guy was horribly injured.
The killer (for that is what he was) was only moderately injured and ran away, but was apprehended.
Now, it transpired that the offender had a history of drunk driving and further was aware that if he drank spirits, he had blackouts. A Court had particularly pointed this out to him before, but he got drunk again on spirits and killed three people.
In America this offence is called Murder. Over here it is Causing Death By Dangerous Driving.
The guy was found guilty and the judge imposed a sentence of fifteen years….for each death. With an additional sentence for causing injury to the fourth passenger. The sentence was 51 years, which means 51 years.
I asked Nigel how he felt about this and he replied as follows, “Henry is gone and will never have the life he deserved and nor will the other victims. My wife and I and three other couples and all of our children will never be the same. But, this was a very bad man who did a very bad thing, the culmination of other lesser bad things that he did. However, he will never hurt another person ever again. I will never see him walking the streets enjoying his life. Nothing will remedy the situation, but justice has been done”.
Over here we have a problem with prison places. In a similar case, the offender may have got 14 years maximum with the offences of (multiple) Death By Dangerous Driving and Drunk Driving, No Insurance, No licence, all running concurrently.
Taking a bit off perhaps for an early guilty plea, taking off the time spent on Remand and the fact that 14 actually means 7 an offender could be back on the streets in 6 years.
I will not dwell on Kenneth Clarke’s comments about rape, but it seems generally that crime and punishment has become a mere accounting exercise in the UK.
Most people do not commit crime, because they feel it is wrong. Some don’t commit crime because they do not know how to go about it. Others are too frightened or too concerned about the shame of being exposed.
Then there are the rest, some of whom do not care about the consequences. These people cannot be redeemed. Some might moderate their actions because of fear of the consequences.
But we, for the most part, have taken the consequences away. Every possible ruse is used not to imprison an offender, so if you do not much mind the court process and a bit of humiliation, you can commit almost endless offences and just be allowed to walk away, perhaps with a fine that you do not pay, or a supervision order, that you break, or community service that you do not turn up for.
How about the new idea re: shoplifters, they take the goods back and apologise. What a wonderful deterrent.
If, after looking at every possible get out, a custodial sentence is unavoidable, then policy is to make that as short as possible.
On paper it stacks up well. Lots of crimes solved, sentences handed out and cost savings all round. All of this steered by people who probably have never been victims of a crime and who have the notion that nobody is actually bad and that punishment is a barbaric throwback to unenlightened times. It is all about understanding and rehabilitation.
How do you rehabilitate a Snake or a Tarantula, how do you point out to a Shark, the error of its ways?
If I do not get howled down, I would like to expand on all this. I want punishment to fit the crime. I don’t want it to fit the allocated budget.
Author: Peter Moore
from: A Bit Moore
England's England 
It's a horribly complicated issue is 'the Law'. Firstly there is a difficult juggling act between punishment and retribution. Chuck in the idea of rehabilitation of offenders and we have the basic tenets … all of which have to be considered but which can be mutually exclusive. It is surprising but of some comfort to me that when some appalling crime occurs, the rape and murder of a child for example, or the recent case of Jo Yates, abducted and later found killed here in my home town, it is often the victims family, while obviously distressed, will ask for help to apprehend and convict, while the mob are out to lynch. The mother of Sarah Paine for example was the model of constructive dialogue during her daughters disappearance and through the trial and conviction of her childs killer. The mother of suzie Lamplugh went on to found a trust … These people demand our respect.
I have never liked the idea of no parole except in perhaps the most serious of cases. The Bradys, the Dennis Nillsons, Peter Sutcliffes. Sometimes the most potent reformer is hope. In a story similar to Peters My ex-wifes son drove while disqualified though not under the influence of drink or drugs. He crashed. His best friend was catapulted from the vehicle and died on the road in front of him. He was 20. The son went to prison for five years .. between the death and the trial he became a father for the first time. How do you balance something like that.. the community wants retribution, the mother of the dead boy didn't want to see a custodial sentence .. there was a six month old baby that was likely to be deprived of a father .. differing opinions from the wider family of the dead young man.
Every case is different .. and yes the British system is very flawed. I would venture that the american system is more flawed … terrible plea bargaining .. thousands of no parole prisoners, three strikes and a mandatory life sentence. This isn't a flame.. but just a slightly different viewpoint.
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I cant believe that in this modern day and age there are still people like you crowing about locking somebody up for 51 years. Locking them up for so long makes you no different to them and sets no example for anybody else to follow as it just demonstrates you are the same as them and want to rule over others. To me its sick that people like you just want to hurt rather than love and rehabilitate like Jesus commands us.
FL
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Better believe it Frank,
I am of that persuasion. Your bible has a phrase for every situation and you pick the one you like. You may choose 'turn the other cheek '.
I choose' en eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth '. You make no mention of three dead young people, one horribly injured and four grieving families. Do they just ' get on with it ' while you shower love on a worthless man.
In practical terms, the man I describe is ' out of circulation ' he will never harm a decent person again. If he had been taken ill at the wheel, or fainted, or had his brakes fail, I would have every sympathy, but as close as you can get to it, he killed these people deliberately.
The nature of offending is that it starts small and escalates until it is stopped. In the UK we have lost sight of this. Justice is an exercise in accounting, like running any business. If you want to maintain the profit, reduce the cost of the product, which is why in the UK when we need more Police we get Community Support Officers, who look like Police to comfort the public, but have no real powers and who go home at 5.30pm.
We ( the government ) tinker round at the edges of the problem, without any real intention of solving it, just to be seen to be doing ' something '.
Remember the story of the old woman and the deadly snake. She found it freezing to death, brought it home, warmed it in front of the fire, gave it food and water. When she leaned down to look at it, the snake bit her. She asked why, after she had been so kind, the snake had done such a deadly thing. The animal replied ' woman, you knew I was a snake when you brought me home '.
Your problem is that think a snake can be turned in to a fluffy rabbit.
Believe me, persistent offenders and addicts laugh at the do gooders who flock to them. They laugh, despise and take advantage of them.
If there is no evil in the world Frank, how does that sit with the Devil ?
Peter Moore.
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Jesus quite specifically commands us to no longer take an eye for an eye but to turn the other cheek, a level of compassion you seem unable or unwilling to give. It is not for you to Judge your fellow man, only the Lord may sit in Judgment upon us all. Jesus taught that we keep turning the other cheek until the love and way of the Lord fills the heart of our aggressor. By turning the cheek this will surely happen as was proven in both the time of Jesus and those who upheld His teachings thereafter.
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Frank, I do agree with Peter about the cherry-picking of passages of your Bible to suit your argument. I'm sure you don't see that that is what you are doing, and you have views that you believe are consistent with what your particular brand of Christianity has taught you, and in that context you are a 'good' Christian.
I wonder if you are less tolerant of homosexuals who are in a long term loving and private relationship than you are of people who create victims because of their criminal actions. Sadly, this is often the case with certain aspects of Christianity – it is a bigger crime to be gay than to be a murderer.
Now, that's not right or fair, is it? I mean, it has to be wrong, yet some people's interpretation of the Bible is not fair and not right.
I put it to you that not dealing with criminals in a language they can understand teaches them nothing, allows them back out to create more victims, and lets them win.
Does the Bible really say that the criminals should have more given to them than their victims? Does it say they shouldn't be stopped from achieving more victims?
I think not.
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